Before I start, I have to mention that I miss the Ohio. I miss what I never had. I wonder how awesome my crewmates’ recent deployment must have been. I wish I could have gone underway with them instead of the people I did.
Your experience in the military is made up by who you endured it with. Unfortunately for me, all the good people came too late, and by that time I was past the point of being able to enjoy my experience. I hope that all of those who are reading this, serving today, had a better experience than I did. And I still hope I made a difference for the generation who came after me.
There is still an enormous amount of material I have left to write. This story goes into great detail during the 2015 holidays, and I’m still not even finished with the interviews and thought processes I went through while on active duty. To speed this up, I’m going to talk about four different interviews I had before getting out. I’ll also throw in some words about GPS (the military separation course we’re required to take), because people are not quite whether it’s valuable or not.
Last time I talked about interests. Once you’re confronted with job boards and the ability to apply, you’d better know what you’re actually interested in, otherwise you’ll be flooded with choices and will end up chasing things that don’t matter as much as you think (like job titles).
Decision Point #4: When and how should I start applying for jobs?
I remember beginning the job application process. I first went on reputable sites like Monster.com and clearancejobs.com, because that’s what other people said made them successful. I don’t encourage you to waste your time on these. I got very little in return for the time I spent searching these sites. I got perhaps two “matches” — that is, a job that I was interested in, and the company responded to my application.
I recommend only two websites: LinkedIn and Glassdoor. By the end of my job search, these were the only two sites I was using. (I’m not discussing USAjobs.gov here, that’s a very different topic.)
LinkedIn has three benefits: you can present yourself well to recruiters, who will almost certainly look at your profile prior to an interview and will gain a good impression of you before you talk with them. You can also look up the people you’re interviewing with to look up their backgrounds and find common interests. Finally, there’s an extraordinarily useful job search tool that functions way better than any other job board. If you haven’t taken a look yet, you should soon!
When you’re using a job board, you MUST sort jobs by date posted, not by relevance. Companies are terrible at removing old postings, and anything older than two weeks is probably going to get re-posted, filled, or forgotten about. The chance of getting a response from an old posting is extremely slim, while applying to steaming new jobs typically gets you a very quick response. All the best companies use LinkedIn to search for candidates and post jobs, and if you have a good profile, you are likely to get contacted by more than one recruiter.
Glassdoor is a website that gives you inside corporate information on salaries, interview questions, and boss reviews. I found it to be an extremely accurate predictor of my own interview experiences, all the way through the offer letter.
I applied for 10-25 jobs per day. I did that for about two weeks prior to my final deployment, and then resumed once I returned and no longer on active duty. It’s a numbers game. Maybe 10% look at you, 1% call you, and only a few of those will result in an offer. It takes skill to get from a phone call to an offer, but first you need to farm, and that means sowing seeds. It’s not as hard as you might think. If you’ve figured out what type of career you want, pick a company and apply for everything that sounds like you might be qualified for and will enjoy doing. For some companies, that may be one posting, and for others it may be 30. Some application websites are more painful than others. Some have taken a few minutes, while others have taken more than an hour.
A short answer to Decision Point #4: Start four months in advance. Many companies will not even want to talk to you then. It takes an average of two months to get from initial phone call to an offer letter. Again, that’s average, so I’ve been given an offer as quick as two weeks, and as slow as just under four months. Most companies want to fill openings quickly, so if you’re too far out, you’ll be immediately disqualified.
Much of this advice comes from my wife, Rui, who worked as a recruiter for two different companies while we lived in Washington State. How to apply for jobs, what the interview process looks like, what to say, how recruiters keep their records…I got an inside look at all of this, and it was very eye-opening. It’s crazy how hard it is to find good talent. A recruiter may sort through hundreds of resumes and conduct dozens of interviews for a single position. For managers, it’s even harder. And recruiters don’t like wasting time — just like you may have to apply for dozens if not hundreds of positions, recruiters will collect hundreds of resumes, then very quickly toss names in the garbage for small offenses like answering their phones impolitely.
Let me talk about Transition GPS (Goals, Plans, Success) for a moment. I don’t know about others’ experiences, but mine were a mix of waste-of-time briefs on VA benefits that would never apply to me, and a handful of somewhat useful seminars on interviews and resumes. The most useful thing I got out of the class was the use of a FUNCTIONAL STYLE RESUME. This is very different than your standard chronological resume. If you’re jumping into a brand new career path and people can’t tell what your skills are by reading your job titles, then you can better explain them with the functional style. Mine was two pages long and talked in detail about my Division Officer and Watch Officer experiences, translating them into technical project management. Big companies often ignored it because they couldn’t stand looking at a non-standard resume, but it got me incredible attention at smaller firms. When you’re using either type, consider your audience.
Decision Point #5: When and how do I prepare for interviews?
I had four key interviews in my last couple of months on active duty. I say they were “key” because I learned huge lessons about this process from them. (I had several other interviews that didn’t mean much — usually companies or positions I had no interest in.)
The first interview, in the middle of GPS, was with an “exclusive” headhunting firm called “Alliance”. They contacted me on LinkedIn saying I was a candidate they were interested in. They advertised themselves as the most elite of all the military headhunters, only taking the top 20% of junior officers, and promising to get them into the most lucrative business careers available. I did two hour-long interviews over the phone and answered a bunch of behavioral questions, such as, “Tell me of time you succeeded/failed,” “Where do you see yourself in five years,” and “What is your leadership style?” I was honest and straightforward in all of my answers. At the end, they said they would love to accept me, except that at one point I mentioned one of my future goals was to get a PhD. “Tell us you’re interested in strictly business, and we’ll take you immediately!”
They may very well be a great headhunter, but I still haven’t totally put away the idea of getting a PhD. I now know exactly the career moves I would need to take to earn a fellowship, and I’ve taken some of the first few. There are many PhDs who work in my office, but it’s a special route and not required for promotion. It would be mostly for pride if I did.
Here’s the catch. Everyone loves to say they’re part of an exclusive group. You want to be a part of something that others can’t. So the attraction in this headhunter was that only 20% of officers get accepted. But you know what…I don’t care. These guys were “exclusive”, meaning if I signed with them I was obligated to stop all my other interviews. Why would I do that? Really, they were just taking advantage of my marketability. I’m glad I didn’t call them back. More than likely, I would have ended up in a sales or consulting job, which probably would not have been a good fit for me. I’m not you, so consider your own needs and desires when making this decision.
I hope this style of narrative is helping you in your decision. Otherwise, I’m not doing my job!
The next interview was with General Electric (GE), in their Aviation Department, for their Junior Officer Leadership Program. Leadership Programs!!! Just about everyone wants to find the secret key that will accelerate their careers (most importantly, pay and title) faster than their peers. That was the point of joining the Navy, right? Sign up for four years and have your career accelerated! GE was one of many large corporations that offered this type of two-year rotational program which would give you a taste of various departments within the company, give you highly marketable training (6 Sigma Black Belt, LEAN, etc.), promise you face time with the company’s top executives, and reserve a premier managerial position for you after the completion of your two year education.
Any reasonable person would be licking their lips and rubbing their hands together when hearing about this program. It’s all the bragging rights you could ever want. And I have to admit, I screwed this one up! Let me explain.
I got through a series of interviews rather quickly, first with recruiters, then with senior engineers with the company. I warned them time and again that I’d be available to work probably no earlier than November. They were fine with that. Then…went on my last deployment. I told them I was leaving and that I would be out of contact. That didn’t help. When I returned, there were a bunch of missed messages on my phone and in my email the week after I left. I tried calling back, but over a month had gone by and they didn’t remember who I was. I tried starting over, but nothing would get through. Rui explained to me later that my name was somewhere in their application system with a black mark for having dropped off the face of the earth.
Important rule: You only get one shot with a company. Ignore advice to the contrary. Rui showed me the computer programs that get used for tracking applicants. A black mark is a black mark, and the company will only contact you if their contact list is exhausted — which in this information age will never happen. If you screw it up, it’s probably going to take you a few years (and the programs are scrubbed) before they’ll interview you again.
It wasn’t the only Junior Officer Leadership Program I applied for. But I soon found that there were very hidden cons to these deals. First, I must say that I noticed that there were many of my former colleagues who had made it with GE or similar firms. However…these guys and girls were typically at the bottom of my class, whether in the Navy or otherwise. Was I hallucinating? Later I met a couple of folks in their mid-30s who had been through GE’s course and experienced a lot of frustration for it.
First, while it’s not mentioned up front, you are absolutely obligated to stay with the company for a minimum of five years. Second, they found the culture to be exactly as the military. Surrounded by former junior officers, the political games and backstabbing continued until they were isolated and burned out. This surely won’t be everyone’s experience, but it’s something I don’t dare to go near. Maybe the corporate world wasn’t for me altogether?
My next interview was with Tesla. A wonderful, reputable company, right? Everyone fawns over Elon Musk and his genius ambitions. I called the veterans’ recruiting department and got a 30 minute interview for a Production Supervisor position. The idea was, even though this might be a step down, it might be the only way for me to break into the high tech industry. After speaking five minutes about my experience, the former Army MP Captain I interviewed with said, “Whoa, whoa, stop! You are way too qualified for this position! I’m afraid you’ll be bored and leave the job after three months. Let me forward your resume to the Engineering team and see what they’ll say.”
Two weeks later I called the guy again. “It looks like the Engineering team didn’t bite. They usually expect at least ten years’ industry experience. But hey, I still think Production Supervisor is a perfect fit for you.” Another two weeks passed by and I called again. “It looks like this team meant to post this position as an internal hire. How does Maintenance Technician sound to you?” I never called again.
Time and again I saw evidence that their HR Department continues to be a joke, and the company itself is not a great place to work. Elon Musk rules with his personality, and can have great big mood swings and go on a firing spree after making insane, last minute changes to the design of a product. Since there are thousands of people waiting in line to work at Tesla, there’s never a worry of exhausting talent. Most people work for mediocre wages, and are expected to work at least 80 hours a week without overtime. If you can’t keep up, you’ll get replaced quickly.
This was still the type of culture I was trying to avoid. It should show you that all you’re guaranteed with a big company’s name is just that. If bragging rights mean a whole lot to you, then these positions are available to you — but be ready to make some sacrifices.
I’m still focused on the Decision Point at hand — how and when do you prepare for interviews? Perhaps I had good experience in dealing with my superiors in the Navy. (Or…arguably not.) But at least I had good interview prep from my times at Naval Reactors. Seriously! It is excellent preparation for interviews in the real world. There is a common sense approach. Think before you speak. Make appropriate eye contact. Show that you’re intelligent, but don’t volunteer too much information. Smile and speak with your body. Show interest. Dress well. Don’t pick your face or say “umm” too much. Everything you learned in the military applies. Doing all this will still get you a long way.
Now for the final story. All the aforementioned companies were “backups”, and the other military headhunters were “backups to my backups”. I was really after Penn State’s Applied Research Laboratory. Unfortunately, my inside contact whom I’d met at a career fair almost a year before wouldn’t answer office phone calls or emails. Finally, I got the word that the gentleman had moved on to become the Program Manager of Advanced Technology at DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency. He was sitting in the throne of what I envisioned as the pinnacle of my future career. I wanted to be this guy. Unfortunately, he couldn’t help me anymore.
Penn State suggested I apply for jobs the normal way. I never got contacted by anyone, even as I applied for jobs that developed submarine technology, or ones that required a TS/SCI clearance with a Counterintelligence Polygraph.
Pro Tip: In the security world, there’s an abundance of clearances out there. TS/SCI is not the highest, and I’m not talking about SAP either. Many job applications, when asking for your clearance level, will ask whether you’ve had a polygraph. There are two types: Counterintelligence (CI) and Full Scope (FS), otherwise known as Lifestyle. If you don’t have one, you probably won’t get one. The most common reason to need one is as an intelligence analyst. You’d be amazed how many millions of people in the US have TS/SCIs…it’s not that helpful in the job search. Also…different government agencies have different clearances that don’t cross over. Having a TS/SCI in the Navy doesn’t help you if you want to work for the CIA, NSA, DHS, DoS, or DoE. You have to start the clearance process from scratch.
(I’m amazed at what I learned during my job application process. I’m also amazed at what I’ve learned in Washington, DC since moving here.)
The story…
I met a representative of Johns Hopkins University’s Applied Physics Laboratory at Submarine Group Nine’s Headquarters. A brief conversation lead to me applying for several jobs on their website, and a very helpful recommendation from this rep. This lead to a phone call for a “Sonar Operator Machine Interface Working Support Group Team Member”. There was no job description. They wanted either a recently separated fully qualified Submarine JO with Anti-Submarine Warfare experience (me!) or a retired ACINT (Acoustic Intelligence) specialist.
Pay attention — this is what you should expect for any job interview for any position you’re competing for once you’re at this level. First there was a 30 minute “are you really a human” phone interview from an HR rep. Then there was a 1 hour “are you really qualified for this position” phone interview from that same rep. Then there was a 1-hour conference call with no fewer than five people interviewing me — two retired Submarine Captains, and three scientists. And when I say “interview”, I really mean they were getting to know me and gauge my personality. Again, I stayed friendly, true, and honest, and they immediately invited me for an interview out to Laurel, MD.
I was shocked — they bought a last minute flight ticket for nearly $1000 to get me across the country to their lab. They also fully funded my meals, hotel, rental car, and all other expenses. I knew I would have to say or do something really stupid to screw this up. (And of course you know that I did — but wait and see why.)
The day before, I was sent an email with a list of 12 people I’d be interviewing with over the course of 8 hours. This started with bosses, then moved to colleagues. I’ll give you the short version. While this was a great office with great people and a great mission, the job itself they wanted me to do was terrible. I knocked out all the boss interviews just fine — all they asked was whether I had any problems speaking in public, or speaking to high ranking officers. Of course I didn’t! Then the first retired Sonar Senior Chief I talked to asked me if I knew exactly what I was interviewing for. I said no, and so he shut the door.
He told me that if I were to get the job, I was the third person to have it in eight months. The others had been fired due to poor performance. That didn’t phase me. He then said that my specific role on this team was a sort of “Product Support Representative”…that there were very many stakeholders in this project, all of whom were constantly calling the office angrily with different demands to changes in the product’s outcome. Again, two previous JOs had been fired because they couldn’t please everyone. It was impossible, in a sense.
Add this to commuting two to three times a week to downtown DC from Baltimore, as well as twice a month to Groton, CT. Then add the fact that I had no input whatsoever into the product’s design, which was my only true interest. Then, the final blow, was the statement from another retired Senior Chief: “Have you ever worked for a really terrible Captain or Department Head? Well, imagine working for ten of them.”
This broke me down. I told them up front I had serious reservations about the job. I was leaving the Navy to get away from this type of culture. Their tone went from very friendly and open to very neutral. The day ended, and I never took my words back — I only repeated them to each new interviewer, quoting what the Senior Chiefs had told me.
I somehow thought they’d still ask me to join their team. They didn’t. You could say in a sense I turned them down, by telling them no up front — but I didn’t. They told me no, and it was a punch to the gut. I was overconfident and I lost the job. Probably for good reason — but it ate me up for a long time, as I was still jobless for three months after returning from my trip to East Asia.
I wanted to badly to get my foot in the door at Johns Hopkins’ APL. I knew the other opportunities that awaited if I had only taken a terrible job for two years. But not getting the job opened up even more opportunities. It freed me and Rui to travel abroad for over two months after I left active duty on September 10th. I had a hole in my gut for much of the time, but in retrospect it was a very daring decision. The most important lesson that I learned was that I would never again be the one to be told “no”. No matter how terrible the job, I would continue smiling and nodding my head until they gave me an offer, to which I had the power to say “no”. I vowed to keep the ball in my court, not theirs.
I would continue to disobey my own vow, showing bluntly that I didn’t like a part of a deal when presented with it. This allowed me to either negotiate it on the spot, or forget about the deal entirely. I repeated this until I got three amazing deals in February, all even better than the Johns Hopkins position.
I’m not sure I recommend anyone else to be this daring. I had a lot of savings and a lot of patience.
But the best part is that not only am I overseeing folks at Johns Hopkins in my current position, I’ve also recently been accepted to one of their Master’s programs. After all, the HR and Admissions Departments don’t share databases. I’m very, very likely to return to JHU after several years, in a much higher position than if I had simply started working there.
All the best of luck to you in your job search. Please contact me via Facebook, this blog, or dominik.wermus@gmail.com if you’ve got specific questions for me. I’d love to answer them.
Regards,
Dominik
bubbacow 